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Edit This!! #3 @FundyBrian

zenjenny

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We will invite members to edit one of our images. Images will be available for one week. We'll take four names at a time (see list here).

People offering an image will give some guidance/make some specific(ish) requests, e.g:
  • I'd like to see this image *pop* more
  • Not sure of the best crop
  • Any iColorama [or other app] suggestions?
  • How would you make this image into a mono?
  • How would you make it an abstract?
  • I seem to have lost the detail of the building/tree/people - can you bring it back without losing the fog?
  • How would you make the most of this mistake I made?
  • Only straight processing, please - nothing 'arty'
  • Knock yourself out - surprise me!
  • And so on

Roolz for contributing editors:
  1. Please respect requests (and the image) of the person offering. I.e: Don't offer a Decim8'd abstract if s/he has asked for 'straight processing only'. And vv. Don't add anything to the image that the original maker wouldn't be able to add her/himself: i.e., nothing from your own camera roll.
  2. Please provide a brief summary of and rationale for your editing processes (this is a group learning process. For the same reason, please offer just one or two edits - three if there's some profoundly educational point to be made.

Roolz for people offering images:
  1. Please be clear about what you'd like to see from others' expertises (see example q's above).
  2. Please acknowledge and comment briefly on each edit offered -- and offer a little wrap-up at the end of the week. Anything that struck you about a particular edit of your image? Something you've learned? An app you simply must purchase & learn? However you wrap up is up to you: but we'll all be holding our breath to hear what you think.


Please browse the thoughtful feedback and comments from our beta testers here
See the beta tests #1 #2 #3 and #4 for examples of previous questions and offered edits

Mobi Challenge guidelines are here

#3 offering will be from FundyBrian (post at will, Brian)

(#2 Kmenglee image still available for edits till Monday, here ).
 

FundyBrian

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Dieppe Waterfront Oct16-004.JPG

I've got lots of these so it doesn't much matter which one I use. They are all dusk, sunset, low light photos made when the light was getting dull. Even though there is some brightness in the sunset the overall sky is covered with clouds. While I was there I was excited thinking it would turn out well. Initial views on my iPhone looked promising. But something is wrong with the picture that mostly shows up when I look at it on my computer. Seen small on my iPhone 6 (where this was made) it looked great. I'm guessing that something I am doing that looks good in the small image is making the image look somewhat harsh and edgy when I know the same thing on my DSLR would look great.
It is supposed to be punchy & dramatic. I'm not happy with the burnout in the sky but I'll ignore that for now. Don't bother with the composition - that part is irrelevant to this exercise. You might not be a fan of enhanced realism HDR stuff but try to suppress the gag reflex for now. I can imaging some gradient exposure blending on the left but in a way I want to keep the attention following the curve of the river.
Here's what I'm looking for in this exercise.
First of all, I would like to hear you description of the picture - the tonality in particular. What has gone wrong here?
Second, how can I improve the tonality without making it look "hard" and edgy? (although most of that is in the foreground).
I'm looking for fine image quality. Pretend its a fine art print.
Here's what I don't need.
I don't need any painting, effects, textures, abstractions, in short anything that would be fun.
Incidentally, these files are from my archives on my computer where they have been imported using Lightroom, although no work was done to them on my computer.
The full size file for this image is 10.1 MB so I expect it will have been reduced a bit on upload.
I have also included the 3 Fusion brackets I used to make the picture, in case you want to have a go from square 1. They were made at the maximum bracket range and since Fusion calculates this dynamically the amount of the brackets will be different rather than a fixed amount. If anything, a 4th bracket to capture more of the brightest part of the sky would have been helpful.
Dieppe Waterfront Oct16-001.JPG

Dieppe Waterfront Oct16-002.JPG

Dieppe Waterfront Oct16-003.JPG

So there are the 3 brackets.
 

ImageArt

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For me, there's too much contrast and the colours are just too saturated to make it seem real. I thought I would just try and get a similar result using one of the pics in Snapseed. I first used the darkest photo but there was just too much noise. Then I used the middle one and that was better but I lost the detail in the sky. So what I did was to take your photo into iColorama overlay it with mine, remove most of my sky so that it reveal yours and then I took the result into LightBrush to bring a little saturation back in the foreground.

Having played around with it, it's interesting how little noise your image has! And maybe that's the issue. Maybe we have become accustomed to seeing more noise and when we see one so pristine it doesn't feel right.

I don't know whether I have improved it. It is a difficult one and I do think it is a matter of degrees.

IMG_1973.JPG
 

FundyBrian

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For me, there's too much contrast and the colours are just too saturated to make it seem real. I thought I would just try and get a similar result using one of the pics in Snapseed. I first used the darkest photo but there was just too much noise. Then I used the middle one and that was better but I lost the detail in the sky. So what I did was to take your photo into iColorama overlay it with mine, remove most of my sky so that it reveal yours and then I took the result into LightBrush to bring a little saturation back in the foreground.

Having played around with it, it's interesting how little noise your image has! And maybe that's the issue. Maybe we have become accustomed to seeing more noise and when we see one so pristine it doesn't feel right.

I don't know whether I have improved it. It is a difficult one and I do think it is a matter of degrees.

View attachment 87105
Thanks for taking the time to work on my photo. I think you have hit on some important points. You have smoothed out the edginess that was bothering me. To be more precise it would be local contrast and especially in the lower part of the image. I suspect I overdid the Intensity slider in particular. I wonder if the low noise comes from combining the 3 brackets. I would still like to see some more life in the foreground area but not at the expense of adding local contrast.
 

rizole

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I'm not sure I know how to do what you're asking for or even if I fully understand what you're asking for. I think the image suffers from being flat so detail is muddied and lost and the brightness of the sunset on such a small part of it just emphasizes the problem. I wonder if it looks over saturated because of the overall flatness.
I've avoided structure, contrast, HDR and just worked with brightness. Using the dodge and burn brush in snapseed I've lightened the foreground, the water closest to the sunset, the highlights on the mud and the buildings to lift all that out and draw the eye. I've also darkened some of the sky and the water under it.
I've also added extra brightness to the two banks of grass with extra exposure towards the mid ground in an attempt to balance and mirror the sunset.
I did drop the saturation a tad to finish.
tmp_19123-Dieppe Waterfront Oct16-004.JPG-02-1399363925.jpeg
 

FundyBrian

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I'm not sure I know how to do what you're asking for or even if I fully understand what you're asking for. I think the image suffers from being flat so detail is muddied and lost and the brightness of the sunset on such a small part of it just emphasizes the problem. I wonder if it looks over saturated because of the overall flatness.
I've avoided structure, contrast, HDR and just worked with brightness. Using the dodge and burn brush in snapseed I've lightened the foreground, the water closest to the sunset, the highlights on the mud and the buildings to lift all that out and draw the eye. I've also darkened some of the sky and the water under it.
I've also added extra brightness to the two banks of grass with extra exposure towards the mid ground in an attempt to balance and mirror the sunset.
I did drop the saturation a tad to finish.
View attachment 87188
Lots of good ideas & suggestions. I find I'm thinking differently about the image as we go along. I hadn't thought of the image as being flat because the sunny part of the sky is in so much contrast with the rest. But if I ignore the sunset then, yes, I see the rest of the scene is rather flat. So far, the only work I have done to the image is the HDR processing in Fusion, which means no localized retouching. If you have a close look at the foreground rocks in the water, and the rocks in the mud and grasses on the right you will see some of the excess local contrast, or edginess, I was complaining about. I did that in an attempt to increase the detail in the dark clouds but failed to notice the negative impact it had on the foreground. To fix that I think I have to take the 3 brackets back into Fusion and reduce the intensity slider, and then make the localized changes you recommended. I like the idea of brightening the reflected sunset in the water. I think, as you suggest, it needs localized retouching to bring out the details I hoped for. The whole point of photographing a sunset over water is to double your sunset. The part of the sky that is reflected isn't bright enough, without retouching, to give the desired effect.
Another thing I could do is make a version of the scene in Fusion that makes the clouds the way I wanted, and another version for the foreground, maybe another just for the brightest sky area, and combine the layers in Leonardo.
 

RoseCat

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I'm not sure I know how to do what you're asking for or even if I fully understand what you're asking for. I think the image suffers from being flat so detail is muddied and lost and the brightness of the sunset on such a small part of it just emphasizes the problem. I wonder if it looks over saturated because of the overall flatness.
I've avoided structure, contrast, HDR and just worked with brightness. Using the dodge and burn brush in snapseed I've lightened the foreground, the water closest to the sunset, the highlights on the mud and the buildings to lift all that out and draw the eye. I've also darkened some of the sky and the water under it.
I've also added extra brightness to the two banks of grass with extra exposure towards the mid ground in an attempt to balance and mirror the sunset.
I did drop the saturation a tad to finish.
View attachment 87188
The colors really pop in this one. :thumbs:
 

Lzed

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Using your 3 brackets...

From the app Mobile HDR (only processes, have to use another app to take the brackets)
This is basically its natural setting with very little alterations.

IMG_0989.JPG

Temp and saturation were bumped up a touch and contrast was bumped down a bit. It is a lot brighter then your original or any others posted so far.

Only difference here is running the image through Noiseware.
IMG_0999.JPG


Again using the same brackets but used Fusion HDR which gave me an image with even more noise so again put through Noiseware.
IMG_0998.JPG
 

FundyBrian

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Using your 3 brackets...

From the app Mobile HDR (only processes, have to use another app to take the brackets)
This is basically its natural setting with very little alterations.

View attachment 87344
Temp and saturation were bumped up a touch and contrast was bumped down a bit. It is a lot brighter then your original or any others posted so far.

Only difference here is running the image through Noiseware.
View attachment 87345

Again using the same brackets but used Fusion HDR which gave me an image with even more noise so again put through Noiseware.
View attachment 87346
Hi Larry. Thanks for putting some thought into my image. I'm not familiar with Mobile HDR so I looked it up. I haven't seen any other HDR apps mention de-ghosting. Do you find it works well? I find ghosting is a common problem. The output from Mobile HDR is unusual in that it made the darkest part of the clouds into the lightest -almost a reversal.
Overall I'm looking for a darker, more dramatic rendition. I would like to see more definition in the clouds.
You must be working on a larger screen, like an iPad, in order to see noise in the image.
By the way, have you seen any HDR apps that can use more than 3 photos from camera roll to make the HDR image?
 

terse

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Looking at Brian's first image, I was taken with the sunset oranges and the repetition of that color in the watery reflection and in the grasses in the foreground. I was bothered by the blownout area at the heart of the sunset and by the orange roof of the nearest building (which didn't go with the other oranges). I also felt that the clouds could be more dramatic and that the left side of the image had too little going on. So in the version below, I tried to tinker with those bits using ACDSee Pro and Snapseed, to make the more distant buildings a bit more distinct, and to push the overall image toward more drama (and I pushed fairly hard:D). I also cropped a bit off the left side to bring the action a bit more toward the middle.

(And like Brian, I found the first image looked better on the mobile screen than on my desktop monitor. I think part of that may be due to the smaller dot pitch -- the space between pixels -- of the iPhone and iPad screens. On the iPad screen, the buildings along the water look more finely drawn, while on the larger desktop monitor, they start to look blocky.)

Snapseed.jpg
 

rizole

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Looking at Brian's first image, I was taken with the sunset oranges and the repetition of that color in the watery reflection and in the grasses in the foreground. I was bothered by the blownout area at the heart of the sunset and by the orange roof of the nearest building (which didn't go with the other oranges). I also felt that the clouds could be more dramatic and that the left side of the image had too little going on. So in the version below, I tried to tinker with those bits using ACDSee Pro and Snapseed, to make the more distant buildings a bit more distinct, and to push the overall image toward more drama (and I pushed fairly hard:D). I also cropped a bit off the left side to bring the action a bit more toward the middle.

(And like Brian, I found the first image looked better on the mobile screen than on my desktop monitor. I think part of that may be due to the smaller dot pitch -- the space between pixels -- of the iPhone and iPad screens. On the iPad screen, the buildings along the water look more finely drawn, while on the larger desktop monitor, they start to look blocky.)

View attachment 87380
That's really nice. My favourite edit on this thread so far.
 

Lzed

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Hi Larry. Thanks for putting some thought into my image. I'm not familiar with Mobile HDR so I looked it up. I haven't seen any other HDR apps mention de-ghosting. Do you find it works well? I find ghosting is a common problem. The output from Mobile HDR is unusual in that it made the darkest part of the clouds into the lightest -almost a reversal.
Overall I'm looking for a darker, more dramatic rendition. I would like to see more definition in the clouds.
You must be working on a larger screen, like an iPad, in order to see noise in the image.
By the way, have you seen any HDR apps that can use more than 3 photos from camera roll to make the HDR image?
This app normally has very good control of ghosting.
The only issue I have (very occasionally) is there will be a slight misalignment between sections of the image and these show like a slight shift most of the time vertically where the bottom might match but mid to top is out a very little bit. If it does that I find redoing will not fix it, so I use another HDR app. But as I said most of the time it does really good.
If you want a more extreme HDR look it has one setting called Enhanced HDR and you can adjust it from the basic natural to extreme HDR. The higher this is set you would see more ghosting.
There only a few apps that will take and use more than 3 images and unfortunately none will export the brackets and I don't know of any app for iOS that will load more than 3.
 

FundyBrian

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This app normally has very good control of ghosting.
The only issue I have (very occasionally) is there will be a slight misalignment between sections of the image and these show like a slight shift most of the time vertically where the bottom might match but mid to top is out a very little bit. If it does that I find redoing will not fix it, so I use another HDR app. But as I said most of the time it does really good.
If you want a more extreme HDR look it has one setting called Enhanced HDR and you can adjust it from the basic natural to extreme HDR. The higher this is set you would see more ghosting.
There only a few apps that will take and use more than 3 images and unfortunately none will export the brackets and I don't know of any app for iOS that will load more than 3.
Thanks Larry. Useful info. I don't know how you keep track of so many apps.
 

Lzed

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And another version with some strange going on's....
This was done in the original True HDR app, I made two versions, one where I liked the darker clouds and one so there was more detail in the background buildings. True HDR merges only two images so I used the mid and overexposed for one and mid and underexposed for the other. Strangely when it saved the two images were the same height but differed in length, only by 10 pixels but True HDR would not merge them unless they were the same size so I took the one and resized it to match the other then merged the two together.
You had used this method before with a covered bridge and liked the result. I liked how it came out as well so I have from time to time used it. Only issue now with the original True HDR is that sometimes after it saves it will quit out of the app.
The one plus to doing it this way is the clouds are looking better and not shifting colour, in most renderings there is a definite blue or even green undertones which in this is mostly gone.

IMG_1040.JPG
 

FundyBrian

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Looking at Brian's first image, I was taken with the sunset oranges and the repetition of that color in the watery reflection and in the grasses in the foreground. I was bothered by the blownout area at the heart of the sunset and by the orange roof of the nearest building (which didn't go with the other oranges). I also felt that the clouds could be more dramatic and that the left side of the image had too little going on. So in the version below, I tried to tinker with those bits using ACDSee Pro and Snapseed, to make the more distant buildings a bit more distinct, and to push the overall image toward more drama (and I pushed fairly hard:D). I also cropped a bit off the left side to bring the action a bit more toward the middle.

(And like Brian, I found the first image looked better on the mobile screen than on my desktop monitor. I think part of that may be due to the smaller dot pitch -- the space between pixels -- of the iPhone and iPad screens. On the iPad screen, the buildings along the water look more finely drawn, while on the larger desktop monitor, they start to look blocky.)

View attachment 87380
Yes, I like that quite well. Maybe a touch darker that I would have chosen. Did you take the square one approach using the 3 brackets or work from the first photo?
Incidentally, the roof is bright red so it isn't likely to match the oranges, except by force.
 

Lzed

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Thanks Larry. Useful info. I don't know how you keep track of so many apps.
I have a note app (NoteMaster) that I use to write some of the interesting and weird stuff apps do and it syncs to Evernote where on the desktop I can open it and edit more etc. I used to have another one but with I think iOS 9 would no longer sync to the desktop. Developer had a separate app on the desktop.
NoteMaster works well and I got it when it was on sale for $1.99US or out $2.79CDN
 

terse

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Did you take the square one approach using the 3 brackets or work from the first photo?
I tried the 3 brackets but didn't get anything better from the two apps I have that handle them. So I worked from your first image. As you mentioned, I think another bracket in between the middle and last would have helped.
 

FundyBrian

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I have a note app (NoteMaster) that I use to write some of the interesting and weird stuff apps do and it syncs to Evernote where on the desktop I can open it and edit more etc. I used to have another one but with I think iOS 9 would no longer sync to the desktop. Developer had a separate app on the desktop.
NoteMaster works well and I got it when it was on sale for $1.99US or out $2.79CDN
I have been looking for some way to keep track of individual app features so when I'm looking for, let's say, an app that shoots RAW and also has support for manually selecting the 2x lens on the 7+, I'll be able to find it. I almost need a spreadsheet and since I've hardly ever used a spreadsheet I'm out of my element. Database programs I have used a lot.
I looked at Evernote but did not want the online syncing and that is the only way it works so I deleted it.
 

FundyBrian

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And another version with some strange going on's....
This was done in the original True HDR app, I made two versions, one where I liked the darker clouds and one so there was more detail in the background buildings. True HDR merges only two images so I used the mid and overexposed for one and mid and underexposed for the other. Strangely when it saved the two images were the same height but differed in length, only by 10 pixels but True HDR would not merge them unless they were the same size so I took the one and resized it to match the other then merged the two together.
You had used this method before with a covered bridge and liked the result. I liked how it came out as well so I have from time to time used it. Only issue now with the original True HDR is that sometimes after it saves it will quit out of the app.
The one plus to doing it this way is the clouds are looking better and not shifting colour, in most renderings there is a definite blue or even green undertones which in this is mostly gone.

View attachment 87395
Yes, I too have had the experience that photos already run through the HDR process have been slightly cropped during alignment and cannot be combined with other brackets for later HDR efforts because the app won't accept images of different pixel dimensions.
Last night and this morning I have been doing much the same thing, except in Fusion HDR. I had really hoped I could get closer to the desired result without heroic measures. True, even with HDR the scene has a fairly extreme exposure range.
Before starting on this I needed to reload the brackets back to my iPhone from storage on my computer. The quality of the 3 iPhone 6 brackets look quite respectable on the computer screen. Out of curiosity I tried combining them in Photomatix and Aurora (HDR software on my computer) just so I had a benchmark for what is possible without resorting to burning, dodging, masking, etc.
<Long-winded stuff about HDR on computer - deleted> Suffice to say, I soon found that if I had ambitions to use the image for something important outside my iPhone it would make more sense to do the HDR processing on my computer. You don't realize how much more can be done with HDR images if you only see it on a mobile device. It's like comparing Photoshop Touch with the real Photoshop.
Back on my iPhone in Fusion. First I did something I never tried before - editing my bracketed exposures - mostly in the Photos app. In the darker one I tried to preserve as much detail as I could in the highlights. I tried various things with the other brackets to improve them. I took my 3 modified brackets back to Fusion and made a finished HDR, but then I made 2 additional, lighter and darker final versions, each one focused at preserving something in particular. These became my new set of brackets. Then I loaded those 3 photos back into Fusion as if they were original brackets. Interesting results. More and more control. Out of the above I learned I need to be much more cautious about using the intensity slider and probably never go beyond 10 (out of 100). It looks ok on the small screen but on a big screen the effects of the intensity slider are unpleasant. After that I made an Enlight version of the clouds to blend in with Leonardo. I had made one other Fusion version just for the foreground grass in the right, to blend in with Leonardo. If I get to something I really like I'll post it later but in this thread I'm more interested to see what other people suggest. There have been several very good suggestions. It really is useful to have several opinions to draw from.
 

zenjenny

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Looking at Brian's first image, I was taken with the sunset oranges and the repetition of that color in the watery reflection and in the grasses in the foreground. I was bothered by the blownout area at the heart of the sunset and by the orange roof of the nearest building (which didn't go with the other oranges). I also felt that the clouds could be more dramatic and that the left side of the image had too little going on. So in the version below, I tried to tinker with those bits using ACDSee Pro and Snapseed, to make the more distant buildings a bit more distinct, and to push the overall image toward more drama (and I pushed fairly hard:D). I also cropped a bit off the left side to bring the action a bit more toward the middle.

(And like Brian, I found the first image looked better on the mobile screen than on my desktop monitor. I think part of that may be due to the smaller dot pitch -- the space between pixels -- of the iPhone and iPad screens. On the iPad screen, the buildings along the water look more finely drawn, while on the larger desktop monitor, they start to look blocky.)

View attachment 87380
Wow. I don't know which I like best -- the edit or the narrative. I love hearing how different eyes work: how different think their way through (or around or to or whatever) their vision. Or something. o_O
 

zenjenny

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And another version with some strange going on's....
This was done in the original True HDR app, I made two versions, one where I liked the darker clouds and one so there was more detail in the background buildings. True HDR merges only two images so I used the mid and overexposed for one and mid and underexposed for the other. Strangely when it saved the two images were the same height but differed in length, only by 10 pixels but True HDR would not merge them unless they were the same size so I took the one and resized it to match the other then merged the two together.
You had used this method before with a covered bridge and liked the result. I liked how it came out as well so I have from time to time used it. Only issue now with the original True HDR is that sometimes after it saves it will quit out of the app.
The one plus to doing it this way is the clouds are looking better and not shifting colour, in most renderings there is a definite blue or even green undertones which in this is mostly gone.

View attachment 87395

I didn't expect an HDR app to turn out a quite-painterly image. Same as with Ted's edit, Larry, I'm as interested in hearing your thinking-out-loud as I am in your edits. Appreciate Brian's attention to everyone's comments, too - a few tutorials in amongst these dialogues.


I'm not sure I know how to do what you're asking for or even if I fully understand what you're asking for. I think the image suffers from being flat so detail is muddied and lost and the brightness of the sunset on such a small part of it just emphasizes the problem. I wonder if it looks over saturated because of the overall flatness.
View attachment 87188
To my eye you've extended the sunlight - or the light of the sunset, if there's a difference -- and drawn my eye from the setting sun right down the image into the gorgeous detail of the grasses and mud and rock and back again to discover the circular sweep of 'lit' sky & water. Just lovely.
 
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