MobiWorkshop MW 1 - Close-up Photography

I have often been disappointed when I have a nice sharp photo to post but the process of reducing the image to a suitable size for posting removes a lot of the sharpness. Certain textures, like sand, don’t reduce well.
I often wonder how some posters manage to achieve such sharp images (not necessarily close ups) on MobiTog, is it superior device, camera app or just pure luck :rolleyes:
Probably the sharpest image is the one straight from the camera, so less messing with apps is better yes?
 
I often wonder how some posters manage to achieve such sharp images (not necessarily close ups) on MobiTog, is it superior device, camera app or just pure luck :rolleyes:
Probably the sharpest image is the one straight from the camera, so less messing with apps is better yes?

It is probably a number of things. Certainly DNG starts out with the best possible;le detail. However, taking a sharp photo and resampling it reduces sharpness. One type of resampling that people often don’t consider is straightening the horizon.
Our phone camera photos are 4032 x 3024 pixels but the largest size we can post on MobiTog is 3000 px. So we have to scale our pictures smaller to post. I usually use 2667 x 2000. The process of resampling an image reduces sharpness. What terse did was take the full sized photo and crop it small enough to post, so no resampling was required. With that picture we’re getting as close as we can get to right out of the camera.
Keeping the ISO low also improved image sharpness.

If we editing in one app and then save as a jpeg and then open it in another app for more editing and save it again, etc., each save reduces the image quality.

You can see that process in action in the EOS thread. Look at the first image and watch how the details soften with each time a different person adds something and resaves the image.
 
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Well as I noted above, I need to source some half decent equipment so If I've gotten nothing else from this thread, I have that but won't be taking anymore photos for this thread now. I'd be disappointed with the results.

Having said that, looking back through my older material I have pulled off some good shots with what I do have. And what they all seem to have in common is strong, summer lighting or high contrast.
I'm sure better lens will allow me to get better shots more consistently across different conditions but here's what I pulled off previously with a cheap plastic stick on lens :)
View attachment 119340
View attachment 119341
Even when almost nothing is in focus you can get some nice shots.View attachment 119342 View attachment 119343
These are dandelion seeds. I never noticed the barbs on them before this pic, which presumably help them dig into soil, cracks and whatnot. View attachment 119344 View attachment 119345
These are wonderful!! And especially so considering they were made with a “cheap plastic stick on lens”. :notworthy:
 
What terse did was take the full sized photo and crop it small enough to post, so no resampling was required
Although I believe mobitog resamples all pictures that are uploaded these days and reduces them to 1000px on the longest size to save on server space/bandwidth.
So with his crop at 1800 odd on the longest side it will have been nearly halfed in the uploading.
 
Although I believe mobitog resamples all pictures that are uploaded these days and reduces them to 1000px on the longest size to save on server space/bandwidth.
So with his crop at 1800 odd on the longest side it will have been nearly halfed in the uploading.
I think images get resized when displayed (according to display width, I think?) rather than when uploaded. On my desktop Mac, I can right-click on an image to open it in a new tab, and there I can view it at its full uploaded size.
 
I think images get resized when displayed (according to display width, I think?) rather than when uploaded. On my desktop Mac, I can right-click on an image to open it in a new tab, and there I can view it at its full uploaded size.
Oh! I've only tried that on mobile devices, I'll check it on my PC.
 
Time to wrap up this workshop. I would like to hear from everyone who followed this workshop even if you were not able to make some close-up photos of your own to post.

RoseCat , dscheff, zenjenny, ImageArt, GroovyGouvy, younger, sinnerjohn, Carol, rizole, lkbside, terse, Starzee,

I think many people would have preferred to do close-up photography in the summer and we could always do this again if there is the interest. However, close-up photography indoors is also ideal when the weather outside is frightful, or you don’t freel inspired by what is handily available outside.

I’ve been doing close-up photography for a long time with regular cameras but only the last 3 or so years with a mobile phone. From that I can tell you 2 basic things. The good news: It’s a lot easier to make simple close-up photos with a phone than a regular camera. The bad news: once you start trying to get a LOT closer, so you have to get a special close-up or macro lens, then things get harder. The biggest problems are, very limited depth of field, and having trouble telling what will be infocus.

Here’s a little questionnaire:
• Did you learn anything new?

• Did you gain any new appreciation for close-up photography?

• Did you find answers to any problems you were having with your close-up photos?

• For the type of close-up photos you like to make what are the most important things you need to remember when making your photos?



Here are a couple of other questions relating to the workshop process:
• Do you think this format is OK?

• Do you have any suggestions how to make it better?

• Do you have any suggestions for future topics?

• Does anyone have a topic they would like to host or present? Or, do you know of another Mobi member you think we should ask to present a workshop?
 
Although I believe mobitog resamples all pictures that are uploaded these days and reduces them to 1000px on the longest size to save on server space/bandwidth.
So with his crop at 1800 odd on the longest side it will have been nearly halfed in the uploading.
I wish I had a better understanding of what happens at the Mobi website level after I press “send” when uploading a photo.
 
I think images get resized when displayed (according to display width, I think?) rather than when uploaded. On my desktop Mac, I can right-click on an image to open it in a new tab, and there I can view it at its full uploaded size.

I wish I had a better understanding of what happens at the Mobi website level after I press “send” when uploading a photo.
Tried on my PC every pic had a longest length of 1000px. Even those uploaded to the site before the changes. It's the same result on both of my android devices. If the full upload is still there to view then I'd like to know how. If for no other reason, EOS must always end up @1000px even if it was a higher quality before because when I make my edit I can only ever get a 1000px download.
 
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Well as I noted above, I need to source some half decent equipment so If I've gotten nothing else from this thread, I have that but won't be taking anymore photos for this thread now. I'd be disappointed with the results.

Having said that, looking back through my older material I have pulled off some good shots with what I do have. And what they all seem to have in common is strong, summer lighting or high contrast.
I'm sure better lens will allow me to get better shots more consistently across different conditions but here's what I pulled off previously with a cheap plastic stick on lens :)
View attachment 119340
View attachment 119341
Even when almost nothing is in focus you can get some nice shots.View attachment 119342 View attachment 119343
These are dandelion seeds. I never noticed the barbs on them before this pic, which presumably help them dig into soil, cracks and whatnot. View attachment 119344 View attachment 119345
I remember you posting quite a few of these and being very envious of your results considering what you have. I do agree, good lighting is paramount.
 
Tried on my PC every pic had a longest length of 1000px. Even those uploaded to the site before the changes. It's the same result on both of my android devices. If the full upload is still there to view then I'd like to know how. If for no other reason, EOS must always end up @1000px even if it was a higher quality before because when I make my edit I can only ever get a 1000px download.
I just tried the same thing on my iPad and on my iMac and had the same result. This must be something recent because I can remember some time ago doing some judging where I downloaded all the pics to my iMac to see them better in a group and they all came out at different sizes, presumably the same that they were uploaded, some at 3000 px.

This could explain why I have been disappointed with the detail I could get with some pictures I uploaded recently. I even deleted some and tried a different upload size but it didn’t help. I wonder if this means it is pointless to upload any pictures bigger than 1000 px.
 
I wonder if this means it is pointless to upload any pictures bigger than 1000 px.
I've been thinking that if uploads are being resized to 100o px, then I'll want to resize them myself and apply sharpening/structure as a final step after, rather than uploading a larger sharpened version that gets sized down (which seems to counteract the sharpening).
 
I've been thinking that if uploads are being resized to 100o px, then I'll want to resize them myself and apply sharpening/structure as a final step after, rather than uploading a larger sharpened version that gets sized down (which seems to counteract the sharpening).
That makes sense to me, too. I remember thinking, as a result of my judging experience with the image files on my iMac, that for competition purposes it was definitely worth posting higher resolution images. The 3000 px images really stood out from the 1500 px ones. I’m wondering if it is worth talking about image quality if it has become a theoretical exercise.
1000 px is only half of the normal display of 1920 x 1080 of the iPhone screens.

Back when the MobiTog app was still around I remember the app downsized images for you upon upload. Then the maximum size of image uploads was increased to 1535 px. Then when the app was abandoned the size was even bigger.
 
Since it is deep winter here and I have not had any opportunities to make any nature photos I dug into my older pics to find examples of a couple of points.
A0844778-20B1-4ABE-8725-DB93462E11ED.jpeg

Dealing with the shallow depth of field is one of the major issues when making close-ups. One of my favourite methods is to try to compose more of the same subject, in this case a bunch of Rabbit’s Foot Clover, out of focus in the background. This helps to enhance the feeling of depth, or separation between the foreground and background in the picture. This picture use the regular lens plus a close-up lens. The depth of field was enough to cover the first bloom but not enough to extend the the second one.

A0BDABA0-ABF7-4913-82BA-A4A0A97D34FB.jpeg

Here I have 3 degrees of focus. I’ve tried to align the camera as much as possible to be flat with the face of the foreground Forget-me-not. Even so, not all of that one flower is in focus. The next flower behind it cannot possibly be in focus but it lends another dimension to the picture. The background, which is only one metre away, is completely out of focus. This was made with the first generation Moment Macro on iPhone 6. I had to look around quite a bit to find flowers in a situation where there was nothing close behind them to be too much in focus. There’s a little drop-off in height between the foreground and background which helps to keep any close flowers out of the picture and too much in focus.

B986F74A-FA2D-400D-A3D2-3ED9D214207A.jpeg

You can only get this amount of depth of field using Focus Stacking, in this case 20 images were made, each at a slightly different focus position. The focus stack of images was developed in Affinity Photo. However, I did not use all 20 of the stack - perhaps only 14 or 15. Once I had covered the range I wanted in focus I discarded the extras which allowed the focus to drop off fairly rapidly beyond my target area. In a single exposure the depth of field would not be enough to keep the front of the biggest mushroom in focus as well at its stem. I used DNG format in the CameraPixels app and set the ISO to 20.

It occurs to me that there is another limitation with focus stacking. The maximum possible in-focus depth for your stack of images is defined by the focus range of your lens. In the case of the group of mushrooms, I was using the 2x lens plus close-up lenses, and the total focus range was about 5 or 6 inches. So it is important to set up the camera at a distance such that the subject lies entirely within that 4-5 inch range.

By the focus range I mean the closest focus position to the farthest. Without any close-up lenses the natural focus range of the phone camera is about 4” to infinity. As soon as you add a close up lens the entire focus range becomes shifted closer. Instead of 4 inches to infinity it might become 3” to 7”. The closer you get the narrower the range becomes, even though the lens mechanism is still moving through the same physical distance inside the camera.

With the Moment Macro, or similar macro lenses, the total focus range is only 3 or 4 mm so if your subject requires a greater depth than that a regular focus stack using CameraPixels won’t work.

Incidentally, when you use the translucent diffuser hood with the Moment Macro and place the front of the diffuser in direct contact with your subject the lens is focused pretty much at infinity, in other words the far end of the focusing range. That means that if your subject has some depth, such as a coin, the face of the coin can still be brought into focus. But if you put a couple of coins in a stack you could no longer focus on the face of the top coin.

The method used for DSLR cameras is not to change the focus of the lens but to move the entire camera and lens a few microns at a time on a track while making up to hundreds of photos. It requires a lot of care in setting up as well as some automated equipment to manage. I think in a limited way it could be accomplished manually using a focusing rail as long as there was no slack in any of the movements.
 
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Since it is deep winter here and I have not had any opportunities to make any nature photos I dug into my older pics to find examples of a couple of points.
View attachment 119378
Dealing with the shallow depth of field is one of the major issues when making close-ups. One of my favourite methods is to try to compose more of the same subject, in this case a bunch of Rabbit’s Foot Clover, out of focus in the background. This helps to enhance the feeling of depth, or separation between the foreground and background in the picture. This picture use the regular lens plus a close-up lens. The depth of field was enough to cover the first bloom but not enough to extend the the second one.

View attachment 119379
Here I have 3 degrees of focus. I’ve tried to align the camera as much as possible to be flat with the face of the foreground Forget-me-not. Even so, not all of that one flower is in focus. The next flower behind it cannot possibly be in focus but it lends another dimension to the picture. The background, which is only one metre away, is completely out of focus. This was made with the first generation Moment Macro on iPhone 6. I had to look around quite a bit to find flowers in a situation where there was nothing close behind them to be too much in focus. There’s a little drop-off in height between the foreground and background which helps to keep any close flowers out of the picture and too much in focus.

View attachment 119380
You can only get this amount of depth of field using Focus Stacking, in this case 20 images were made, each at a slightly different focus position. The focus stack of images was developed in Affinity Photo. However, I did not use all 20 of the stack - perhaps only 14 or 15. Once I had covered the range I wanted in focus I discarded the extras which allowed the focus to drop off fairly rapidly beyond my target area. In a single exposure the depth of field would not be enough to keep the front of the biggest mushroom in focus as well at its stem. I used DNG format in the CameraPixels app and set the ISO to 20.

It occurs to me that there is another limitation with focus stacking. The maximum possible in-focus depth for your stack of images is defined by the focus range of your lens. In the case of the group of mushrooms, I was using the 2x lens plus close-up lenses, and the total focus range was about 5 or 6 inches. So it is important to set up the camera at a distance such that the subject lies entirely within that 4-5 inch range.

By the focus range I mean the closest focus position to the farthest. Without any close-up lenses the natural focus range of the phone camera is about 4” to infinity. As soon as you add a close up lens the entire focus range becomes shifted closer. Instead of 4 inches to infinity it might become 3” to 7”. The closer you get the narrower the range becomes, even though the lens mechanism is still moving through the same physical distance inside the camera.

With the Moment Macro, or similar macro lenses, the total focus range is only 3 or 4 mm so if your subject requires a greater depth than that a regular focus stack using CameraPixels won’t work.

Incidentally, when you use the translucent diffuser hood with the Moment Macro and place the front of the diffuser in direct contact with your subject the lens is focused pretty much at infinity, in other words the far end of the focusing range. That means that if your subject has some depth, such as a coin, the face of the coin can still be brought into focus. But if you put a couple of coins in a stack you could no longer focus on the face of the top coin.

The method used for DSLR cameras is not to change the focus of the lens but to move the entire camera and lens a few microns at a time on a track while making up to hundreds of photos. It requires a lot of care in setting up as well as some automated equipment to manage. I think in a limited way it could be accomplished manually using a focusing rail as long as there was no slack in any of the movements.
Wow, I love that first image.

I keep on thinking I must do focus stacking but it seems so much hassle to get the photo in the end and requires a tripod. Maybe I should try that in summer when there are some flowers to concentrate on.
 
Wow, I love that first image.

I keep on thinking I must do focus stacking but it seems so much hassle to get the photo in the end and requires a tripod. Maybe I should try that in summer when there are some flowers to concentrate on.
I think it is definitely worthwhile, even for extreme range scenic photos. However, it is essential that absolutely no subject movement occurs during the exposures. Anything that moves in the wind would not work.
 
Did the graph thing with all my macro lenses. I did it on my cutting board and it was interesting to see what detail come up too.

iPhone first:

Moment 10x Macro - pretty much what Brian got. Sorry mistake on image - should be 10x
E2EC6CD7-DA17-45E7-A748-50ED6AFF9C51.jpeg


Neewer +10 Macro filter on Moment 58mm telephoto lens - didn’t get the focus quite right I see. Slight bending on the outside.
07FCFA5C-25A0-4F22-AB9A-3F22C2FE12EF.jpeg


Huawei P20 Pro

Cheap Apexel x15 Macro Lens on a Kase phone case with 17mm thread. I can’t understand why this is further away than the Moment Macro lens? I couldn’t figure out if the 7+ x2 zoom is also at work with the Moment Macro lens :confused:. One thing I would say though is that the detail in the middle is pretty good and at a resolution of 7296x5472 you can afford to do some cropping. Imagine how awesome the Moment lens would be!
53929272-2E5F-43A3-A982-6677096A3AC7.jpeg


Beastgrip Macro - part of 37mm 0.43 wide angle lens on a clip. So I’m not sure how to translate that into macro, FundyBrian, but does that mean about x2 Macro??
DF83C9F8-7A79-4BBC-8BC5-93A3FBDC3A23.jpeg


So I also have some 38mm close-up filters and I added a 10+ and 4+ together on a clip. Doesn’t seem that close?? All these different macro measurements are confusing to me.
BE0FDB88-318A-4F63-AFFC-EE3C65620D0C.jpeg


Also I seem to get that purple lens flare using the clip and I wonder if it’s because it’s shiny. What paint did you use to paint your clip, Brian?
 
I was going through some of the macros that I took in South America and remembered that I took some using LIVE. I mean if you see how those little flowers are moving around in the wind, it’s surprising I got anything sharp! I’ve slowed this down too. I think this was the Moment Macro lens.

0F5E39AE-8D87-4047-8C43-7CC25650607A.gif


Actual Image
05B33DFC-51A7-45E3-B0A2-564BB56D3516.jpeg
 
Did the graph thing with all my macro lenses. I did it on my cutting board and it was interesting to see what detail come up too.

iPhone first:

Moment 10x Macro - pretty much what Brian got. Sorry mistake on image - should be 10x
View attachment 120187

Neewer +10 Macro filter on Moment 58mm telephoto lens - didn’t get the focus quite right I see. Slight bending on the outside.
View attachment 120188

Huawei P20 Pro

Cheap Apexel x15 Macro Lens on a Kase phone case with 17mm thread. I can’t understand why this is further away than the Moment Macro lens? I couldn’t figure out if the 7+ x2 zoom is also at work with the Moment Macro lens :confused:. One thing I would say though is that the detail in the middle is pretty good and at a resolution of 7296x5472 you can afford to do some cropping. Imagine how awesome the Moment lens would be!
View attachment 120189

Beastgrip Macro - part of 37mm 0.43 wide angle lens on a clip. So I’m not sure how to translate that into macro, FundyBrian, but does that mean about x2 Macro??
View attachment 120191

So I also have some 38mm close-up filters and I added a 10+ and 4+ together on a clip. Doesn’t seem that close?? All these different macro measurements are confusing to me.
View attachment 120197

Also I seem to get that purple lens flare using the clip and I wonder if it’s because it’s shiny. What paint did you use to paint your clip, Brian?
It is really informative to make this type of test with your equipment isn’t it.
It is often difficult to tell what what the makers of close-up equipment mean from what the call their devices. The term “macro” is frequently misused to imply any sort of close-up lenses. The proper optical term would be to measure the lens and report the diopter value as +10 or +4, etc. I don’t know what x2 macro would be unless it means a +2 close-up lens. The only way to tell is to measure the focal length and from that calculate the diopter value. Somewhere in the close-up workshop I described how to find the focal length of your lenses. It is a quick way to tell what you have. A +10 diopter lens will have a focal length of 100mm. A +2 will be 500mm. A +4 will be 250mm.
Your wide angle conversion lens at .43 is going the opposite direction to close up lenses. A .5 wide angle should give twice as wide a view. .43 is a little more than double the width. Assuming we start with a 28mm equivalent on the phone then .43 should give you 10.75mm.
Yes, the Moment macro works perfectly well on the 2x phone lens. It gives you twice the magnification at the same focus distance.
Purple is a typical colour for lens flare. When your adapter has forward-facing shiny surfaces they can reflect on the back side of a lens attached to the adapter. I always paint my stuff with flat black enamel paint. It comes in a tiny bottle and is readily found in hobby shops, especially the type that sell plastic models of airplanes and cars. The brand name is Testors. Bottle is 45mm tall. It will probably need a good stirring up since it usually settles after sitting a while. You get a remarkably small amount of paint for the money. 1/4 oz.
1BB40DEC-D4A7-4723-9672-682AEE21DFB6.jpeg

92CBAECF-DC11-4D58-A53E-025C9CE84E95.jpeg

The label used to have more style but putting 3 languages on a tiny label fixed that.
Since this is a US brand there may be a European product there instead. Another brand name comes to mind - Humbrol.
 
It is really informative to make this type of test with your equipment isn’t it.
It is often difficult to tell what what the makers of close-up equipment mean from what the call their devices. The term “macro” is frequently misused to imply any sort of close-up lenses. The proper optical term would be to measure the lens and report the diopter value as +10 or +4, etc. I don’t know what x2 macro would be unless it means a +2 close-up lens. The only way to tell is to measure the focal length and from that calculate the diopter value. Somewhere in the close-up workshop I described how to find the focal length of your lenses. It is a quick way to tell what you have. A +10 diopter lens will have a focal length of 100mm. A +2 will be 500mm. A +4 will be 250mm.
Your wide angle conversion lens at .43 is going the opposite direction to close up lenses. A .5 wide angle should give twice as wide a view. .43 is a little more than double the width. Assuming we start with a 28mm equivalent on the phone then .43 should give you 10.75mm.
Yes, the Moment macro works perfectly well on the 2x phone lens. It gives you twice the magnification at the same focus distance.
Purple is a typical colour for lens flare. When your adapter has forward-facing shiny surfaces they can reflect on the back side of a lens attached to the adapter. I always paint my stuff with flat black enamel paint. It comes in a tiny bottle and is readily found in hobby shops, especially the type that sell plastic models of airplanes and cars. The brand name is Testors. Bottle is 45mm tall. It will probably need a good stirring up since it usually settles after sitting a while. You get a remarkably small amount of paint for the money. 1/4 oz.
View attachment 120209
View attachment 120208
The label used to have more style but putting 3 languages on a tiny label fixed that.
Since this is a US brand there may be a European product there instead. Another brand name comes to mind - Humbrol.
Thanks for that. For me just knowing what the results are for each lens, gives me an idea of which one to use when.

Well, I know the Humbrol brand well. We have a Hobbycraft superstore 6 minutes away with a good model section and I wouldn’t be surprised if Humbrol is the brand. Great, I’m going to rush there tomorrow and get a tin so that I can paint it before we go away on Tuesday.

Honestly, I have so many accessories that I want to take with me, I have a separate bag to put them all in! I have also bought a £8 bracket which fits my iPhone to my binoculars. I’m really quite surprised at how well it works! The problem is that the setup really needs to be on a tripod to keep it still and to enable me to easily hit the shutter button but my old Leica bins don’t have a tripod mount thread. I have worked out using various bought photographic bits and pieces how I could erect one but that’s another £30 and I’m feeling a bit guilty about how much I have spent recently on such things.

As a professional photographer, you must have a room full of the stuff! I can’t believe how much is out there and how many bits and pieces I wouldn’t mind getting.
 
Thanks for that. For me just knowing what the results are for each lens, gives me an idea of which one to use when.

Well, I know the Humbrol brand well. We have a Hobbycraft superstore 6 minutes away with a good model section and I wouldn’t be surprised if Humbrol is the brand. Great, I’m going to rush there tomorrow and get a tin so that I can paint it before we go away on Tuesday.

Honestly, I have so many accessories that I want to take with me, I have a separate bag to put them all in! I have also bought a £8 bracket which fits my iPhone to my binoculars. I’m really quite surprised at how well it works! The problem is that the setup really needs to be on a tripod to keep it still and to enable me to easily hit the shutter button but my old Leica bins don’t have a tripod mount thread. I have worked out using various bought photographic bits and pieces how I could erect one but that’s another £30 and I’m feeling a bit guilty about how much I have spent recently on such things.

As a professional photographer, you must have a room full of the stuff! I can’t believe how much is out there and how many bits and pieces I wouldn’t mind getting.
Yes, through the years I have collected lots of odd things for photography. After some time goes by some of them get relegated to the parts bin. From there they may be reborn as something new.
I have a Lowepro fanny pack style case big enough for some iPhone accessories. I think I will limit my accessories to what will fit in that case and no more.
I have a couple of DSLR lenses that have removable tripod mounts. I have also seen that type of mount available as an accessory. I even built one from scratch for one lens I used to use. But they won’t fit into every lens. Some lenses don’t have enough free space between the control rings to attach the mount.
Also, to use a regular camera lens with the binocular mount you need the telescope adapter for the lens. As long as you can look through and view an in focus image with your eyes it will work with a cell phone. You can’t do that with a regular camera lens without the telescope adapter.
 
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