TIFF & JPEG Explained - The Definitive Idiot's Guide...

It seems to me that what we're all reading here is arguably the first definitive history of the development of the technology of mobile photography, at least that an idiot like me could understand.

John's essay lights the path back to the first cameras, and illuminates the way forward from where we are now...

Maybe most importantly, it's entertaining as Hell.
 
lazaro said:
It seems to me that what we're all reading here is arguably the first definitive history of the development of the technology of mobile photography, at least that an idiot like me could understand.

John's essay lights the path back to the first cameras, and illuminates the way forward from where we are now...

Maybe most importantly, it's entertaining as Hell.
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Mikeraboy said:
Pins and needles waiting for the next episode.
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lisamjw said:
Seriously, this is really interesting reading! Thank you for helping me understand so much about the technical side of digital photography.
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Yes Yes YES!!!

I'm seriously loving this thread... :D
 
So, I have one question, and forgive me if I'm being dense... :whistle: :coffee:

"Each and every conventional digital camera manufacturer had created their own proprietary (and secret) RAW file format, to be used on their own brand of cameras only. Canon RAW files simply can't be used in any way by Nikon, and NIkon RAW files - equally - plain won't work with Canon gear. Etcetera, for all the big-name digicam companies out there.

There was, though, one forlorn and lonely uncompressed image file format that stood out from all the rest. The difference? It was cross-platform. Anybody who cared to could use it; any software could be programmed to read and manipulate it."​

The RAW file is a digital negative, and after shooting the photo on a Canon or Nikon or whatever brand digital camera, you'd transfer this RAW file to your computer, to either keep as is, or post-process with software such as Photoshop, correct? Which is not a Canon or Nikon etc. brand, is it?

I'm not understanding how/why you'd manipulate a Canon RAW file with a Nikon post-processing......what? :confused:
 
RoseCat said:
So, I have one question, and forgive me if I'm being dense... :whistle: :coffee:

"Each and every conventional digital camera manufacturer had created their own proprietary (and secret) RAW file format, to be used on their own brand of cameras only. Canon RAW files simply can't be used in any way by Nikon, and NIkon RAW files - equally - plain won't work with Canon gear. Etcetera, for all the big-name digicam companies out there.

There was, though, one forlorn and lonely uncompressed image file format that stood out from all the rest. The difference? It was cross-platform. Anybody who cared to could use it; any software could be programmed to read and manipulate it."​

The RAW file is a digital negative, and after shooting the photo on a Canon or Nikon or whatever brand digital camera, you'd transfer this RAW file to your computer, to either keep as is, or post-process with software such as Photoshop, correct? Which is not a Canon or Nikon etc. brand, is it?

I'm not understanding how/why you'd manipulate a Canon RAW file with a Nikon post-processing......what? :confused:
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I'm not really understanding this question

I shoot with a Nikon camera and always shoot raw. This gives me the opportunity to post process my images in Lightoom and I do a way better job at that than any JPEG compression will do for me. That is basically why a lot of photographers shoot raw. Extra control. Personally I find the extra control over white balance and highlights and shadows the most important difference. You could shoot a raw photo with completely the wrong white balance and just correct it afterwards. And you can recover an amazing amount of dark parts of a photo when shooting raw. Parts which will just disappear in a JPEG file.
 
FrankHoekzema said:
I'm not really understanding this question

I shoot with a Nikon camera and always shoot raw. This gives me the opportunity to post process my images in Lightoom and I do a way better job at that than any JPEG compression will do for me. That is basically why a lot of photographers shoot raw. Extra control. Personally I find the extra control over white balance and highlights and shadows the most important difference. You could shoot a raw photo with completely the wrong white balance and just correct it afterwards. And you can recover an amazing amount of dark parts of a photo when shooting raw. Parts which will just disappear in a JPEG file.
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Yes, to reduce it to its simplest terms, it's about having the most visual information available to you to work with in post processing. That's what raw tiff is: the most and purest information you can get in light and shadow.
 
RoseCat said:
So, I have one question, and forgive me if I'm being dense... :whistle: :coffee:

"Each and every conventional digital camera manufacturer had created their own proprietary (and secret) RAW file format, to be used on their own brand of cameras only. Canon RAW files simply can't be used in any way by Nikon, and NIkon RAW files - equally - plain won't work with Canon gear. Etcetera, for all the big-name digicam companies out there.

There was, though, one forlorn and lonely uncompressed image file format that stood out from all the rest. The difference? It was cross-platform. Anybody who cared to could use it; any software could be programmed to read and manipulate it."​
The RAW file is a digital negative, and after shooting the photo on a Canon or Nikon or whatever brand digital camera, you'd transfer this RAW file to your computer, to either keep as is, or post-process with software such as Photoshop, correct? Which is not a Canon or Nikon etc. brand, is it?

I'm not understanding how/why you'd manipulate a Canon RAW file with a Nikon post-processing......what? :confused:
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@RoseCat - Not at all dense Cat and yes (or no!) you would not manipulate a Canon RAW file with a Nikon, or vice versa as it happens... :rog:

Both Canon and Nikon (and others) have their own proprietary software that will handle only their own RAW files... ;)

But the more general software photo processing software packages, Lightroom, Photoshop, Aperture and so on, can multi-task, that is to say, they are able to handle most, if not all, of the main manufacturer's RAW files - but this means they do have to have regular updates for all of the latest hardware as, so I believe, they all have different RAW handling requirements... :D
 
My thanks to all for helping out with Rosecat's question, and RoseCat, I hope the input clarified things for you ( your question wasn't dense at all - it was my writing that was a little bit muddy . . . ).

I'll add one more point here: if the phonecam people had followed the strategy of the conventional digicam manufacturers, each phonecam manufacturer would have developed their own proprietary RAW format and the software for "reading" their image files. Thus - to use Apple as an example - only iPhone users would be able to view an Apple RAW file. If you were using a Nokia phonecam, you would be able to view Nokia's RAW files, but not Apple RAW files. And so on and so forth; obviously an unmanageable situation.

I've often heard this used as the reason that the phonecam industry made a strategic decision to stay away from the RAW format . . .

Personally, I think that if that was the reason, the various manufacturers were simply dodging the issue and copping a mighty cheap plea as they all knew damn well that TIFF - a universal RAW file format that could be read by any phone - was just sitting there waiting to be used . . .

R'gds,

John

p.s. I'm about at the halfway mark of the next instalment, so hang in there !
 
RoseCat said:
....it feels like when I was waiting for Stephen King's next book in the Tower series. :whistle: :sneaky:
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RoseCat (& Mobifolks) -

Apologies for the delay in the next instalment, but the Iveragh was graced with one final week & 1/2 of summerish weather before the rains and gales of Winter begin. And don't quit until next March. So I've been busier than a one-armed wallpaper hanger on his very own pogo stick . . .

For those of you with interest in the pleasantries and elegance of The Rural Life - or "close to the Dirt, even closer to the Bone, and right over the Edge" as I like to put it, here follows most of what has been keeping me jumping . . .

Harvest and store carrots, onions, beets, spuds, squash etc.

Clean up outside garden for winter; top off cold compost pile.

Plant winter veg in Polytunnel for "the hungry gap".

Clean chimneys and gutters.

Spade South side flower beds & plant spring bulbs.

Dig out head of kitchen drain sump & redo drystone curbing.

Build and install new door to cowshed.

Build and install cribbing in cowshed for peat storage. Load the next year's worth of peat.

Clean, check, weatherise well pump switchgear.

Move and rewire overhead lights in barn.

Build larger workbench in barn.

Plant Hydrangea hedge along driveway.

Plus a list of five-and-dime stuff as long as my arm . . .

And the concrete block for finishing up the root cellar is being delivered tomorrow morning.

The above is in no way an excuse, but a comment on the reasons you can expect me to disappear for periods of time from the Internet map (thus Mobi).

Comes with the territory (and I wouldn't have it any other way!).

:rog:

R'gds,

John
 
I've just come across this thread. Love it, even a techno dummy/phobe such as I can actually comprehend the concepts. And great questions @RoseCat :). @jseye actually started to explain to me (on another thread which i can't find), the basic digi photography principles, a few weeks back when i first joined. This is just as good. Keep it going John :)


simin
 
jseye said:
RoseCat (& Mobifolks) -

Apologies for the delay in the next instalment, but the Iveragh was graced with one final week & 1/2 of summerish weather before the rains and gales of Winter begin. And don't quit until next March. So I've been busier than a one-armed wallpaper hanger on his very own pogo stick . . .

For those of you with interest in the pleasantries and elegance of The Rural Life - or "close to the Dirt, even closer to the Bone, and right over the Edge" as I like to put it, here follows most of what has been keeping me jumping . . .

Harvest and store carrots, onions, beets, spuds, squash etc.

Clean up outside garden for winter; top off cold compost pile.

Plant winter veg in Polytunnel for "the hungry gap".

Clean chimneys and gutters.

Spade South side flower beds & plant spring bulbs.

Dig out head of kitchen drain sump & redo drystone curbing.

Build and install new door to cowshed.

Build and install cribbing in cowshed for peat storage. Load the next year's worth of peat.

Clean, check, weatherise well pump switchgear.

Move and rewire overhead lights in barn.

Build larger workbench in barn.

Plant Hydrangea hedge along driveway.

Plus a list of five-and-dime stuff as long as my arm . . .

And the concrete block for finishing up the root cellar is being delivered tomorrow morning.

The above is in no way an excuse, but a comment on the reasons you can expect me to disappear for periods of time from the Internet map (thus Mobi).

Comes with the territory (and I wouldn't have it any other way!).

:rog:

R'gds,

John
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So, what did you do after lunch... :whistle:

:D
 
jseye said:
RoseCat (& Mobifolks) -

Apologies for the delay in the next instalment, but the Iveragh was graced with one final week & 1/2 of summerish weather before the rains and gales of Winter begin. And don't quit until next March. So I've been busier than a one-armed wallpaper hanger on his very own pogo stick . . .

For those of you with interest in the pleasantries and elegance of The Rural Life - or "close to the Dirt, even closer to the Bone, and right over the Edge" as I like to put it, here follows most of what has been keeping me jumping . . .

Harvest and store carrots, onions, beets, spuds, squash etc.

Clean up outside garden for winter; top off cold compost pile.

Plant winter veg in Polytunnel for "the hungry gap".

Clean chimneys and gutters.

Spade South side flower beds & plant spring bulbs.

Dig out head of kitchen drain sump & redo drystone curbing.

Build and install new door to cowshed.

Build and install cribbing in cowshed for peat storage. Load the next year's worth of peat.

Clean, check, weatherise well pump switchgear.

Move and rewire overhead lights in barn.

Build larger workbench in barn.

Plant Hydrangea hedge along driveway.

Plus a list of five-and-dime stuff as long as my arm . . .

And the concrete block for finishing up the root cellar is being delivered tomorrow morning.

The above is in no way an excuse, but a comment on the reasons you can expect me to disappear for periods of time from the Internet map (thus Mobi).

Comes with the territory (and I wouldn't have it any other way!).

:rog:

R'gds,

John
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WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: You must have an AMAZING garden.

...and how much do I love that you say "spuds"?? Only other people I know who used that term were my grandparents. :inlove:

Take your time and we will just need to be patient!! :D
 
One small correction and (I hope) some clarification:

jseye said:
And though a RAW file may be used as a finished image
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No, sorry, but it can't. You need to "develop" a Camera RAW file to view it in any meaningful way—typically this involves, at a minimum, de-mosaicing (or taking the strangely-arranged sensor data and turning it into RGB pixels) and applying a white balance setting.

jseye said:
Each and every conventional digital camera manufacturer had created their own proprietary (and secret) RAW file format, to be used on their own brand of cameras only. Canon RAW files simply can't be used in any way by Nikon, and NIkon RAW files - equally - plain won't work with Canon gear. Etcetera, for all the big-name digicam companies out there.
Click to expand...
In fact, all digital camera sensors create RAW files (including those of mobile devices such as iPhones), and the files are often unique to the precise model, never mind the manufacturer—so a Canon 5D Mk II's RAW isn't necessarily the same as a 5D Mk III's. (Disclaimer: a handful of cameras—including proper Leicas—use Adobe's non-proprietary DNG format for their RAW files, but even this is more of a non-proprietary wrapper than can still contain proprietary details.)

When producing JPEGs, cameras—big or small—"develop" this RAW file in-camera as the manufacturer sees fit (subject, in the case of better cameras, to a degree of user control over white balance and also factors such as contrast and saturation, or even conversion to B&W).

At the top end of the market (enthusiast point-and-shoots, and pretty much all mirrorless and DSLR system cameras) there is also the option to save the unprocessed RAW file for later transfer to your computer.

Nearly all such cameras ship with some software that can be used to convert these RAW files to a finished image. These apps—sometimes manufacturer-specific and sometimes special versions of off-the-shelf packages with manufacturer-specific add-ins designed to read proprietary file formats—nearly all have one serious shortcoming:
  • no grown-up photographer wants to use them.
That's because companies such as Adobe (Photoshop, Lightroom) and Apple (Aperture) produce much better tools.

However, the likes of Apple and Adobe have a little problem—they don't have access to the rules used to decode the RAW files used by the proprietary programs. And the likes of Canon and Nikon aren't telling.

Fortunately, they hire engineers that are extremely good at reverse-engineering the proprietary files formats and thus allowing photographers to process their RAW files using the software of their choice. And this is why RAW appears to be some kind of standard (as Abobe, Apple and others can open seemingly every RAW file out there), when it isn't. Not even remotely.

(But it's why the updates to such programs needed to cope with new hardware are often a week or two behind the shipping of the hardware in question).

BIG DISCLAIMER: as the developer who first—as far as I'm aware—produced a camera app that could save TIFFs I do have a little skin in this game ;-)
 
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