Thoughts about image quality

Mik

MobiLurver
MobiSupporter
Real Name
Michael
Device
iPhone X
I would like to know how you think about the following of my thoughts.

It's about image quality and what the devices do to get the most out of it and what apps do to get the most out of it. And it's about my experience that you can't have both at the same time.

The device brings with it image stabilization. This means you have longer exposure times with lower ISO values. This can help reduce loss of sharpness due to hand shake or wind and whatever reason and means less noise.

Now you would say, that's good, lets combine this with the RAW shooting capabilities of some apps and you have the best out of two worlds.

This is a quotation from the ProCamera blog (https://www.procamera-app.com/en/blog/procamera-raw-dng-ios10/)
"When shooting RAW photos, no iOS image stabilization and processing is applied. You get the unaltered sensor data."

I understand this is no limitation of this app or of any other app. It's just the way the device handles shooting RAW. And I am ok with that. I mean, at least I know about such things and can decide how I want to handle certain situations. But what's about you? Did you know about this? Are you more the shooting-RAW-at-all-costs-type of user (using a tripod maybe) or the I-paid-for-image-stabilization-and-want-to-use-this type of shooter (who just wants all the technical advantages the device offers)?

Btw, do you like to shoot using manual controls for ISO and shutter speed? To my experience the same limitations apply here like the ones for RAW shooting. No image stabilization is applied. And the same goes for HDR and other shooting modes other than just plain snapping an image or video.
 
Wow, I just assumed that image stabilisation occurred in all circumstances, except possibly raw, if it was switched on. Also, the Procamera app says that sometimes an image will be sharper on a tripod if image stabilisation is switched off.

Who says that iPhone photography isn’t as complicated as a proper camera if you want full control!
 
You need to know your technical stuff. But who tells you about all the facts? There is no app I know of, except the one mentioned earlier, that gives you hints about what can have negative impact on image quality.
 
sinnerjohn, not necessarily. My point here is that your device has certain features and everyone expects these features to be active any time. Because you weren't told otherwise. This might does affect image quality to some extend and some people might have their own interpretation of image quality and don't care much about. But isn't everyone interested to have all bells and whistles ringing that their devices are capable of?
 
But what's about you? Did you know about this? Are you more the shooting-RAW-at-all-costs-type of user (using a tripod maybe) or the I-paid-for-image-stabilization-and-want-to-use-this type of shooter (who just wants all the technical advantages the device offers)?

Btw, do you like to shoot using manual controls for ISO and shutter speed? To my experience the same limitations apply here like the ones for RAW shooting. No image stabilization is applied. And the same goes for HDR and other shooting modes other than just plain snapping an image or video.
I like to know.

Image stabilization isn't too much of a concern for me -- I mostly shoot outdoors in daylight, so even when I'm holding ISO at 25 or so, the shutter speed is almost always fast enough to avoid camera movement problems. I'm also usually shooting still objects, and I carry a keychain-size tripod for when I need it (Joby GripTight Micro). All the same, I like to know what's going on with the hardware and software at different settings, and sometimes it does make a difference even for me.

I frequently crop my photos, sometimes quite a lot, so the quality of the original image capture is extra important. Sometimes I crop to get a more suitable aspect ratio, sometimes because I discover a better image within the original, and sometimes because I can't get any closer to the subject (e.g., I'm standing on the edge of a cliff).

I also print some of my stuff, which occasionally means I need to upsize an image, so it helps to have it sharp to begin with.
 
I personally do not like the image stabilizer at all. If there is a way to disable it, I’d be ecstatic to learn how. Not even kidding.

I have a shake. Sometimes it’s slight, sometimes it terrible and sometimes it’s a non issue. I’ve found on the days it is only a slight issue, I end up with pictures that just aren’t crisp enough. On prior phones, I was able to work around the issue. With this one, I seem to be loosing image detail. Not to mention the delay I quite often end up with as it pauses between my button press and the actual shutter click. I will end up with a completely different capture than what was intended.

I also LOVE to shake my phone to create abstracts using lights, colors, sunsets/rises and so on. The stabilization makes it near impossible. I HATE THIS SO MUCH. I used to be able to get crisp abstracts and now I get blurry focused landscapes. It’s frustrating. This has taken away probably 3/4 of what I was photographing (since most of my art work was based on these photos).

Now that I know this particular app doesn’t use the stabilization when shooting raw, I’m more inclined to shoot with it.
 
ValeriGail, any app shooting in RAW mode should have no stabilization in this mode. For particular apps, you can switch off stabilization in ProCamera in general if you like, not only for RAW. When you use PureShot or 645Pro, these apps have always switched off stabilisation in any mode, even in full automatic mode. There is no setting to turn on stabilization. I understand this behaviour as a means of enhancing image quality. At least in well lit situations and hand held.

Thank you for your comment. It was very interesting for me to learn that having no stabilization can have advantages in certain situations.
 
ValeriGail, any app shooting in RAW mode should have no stabilization in this mode. For particular apps, you can switch off stabilization in ProCamera in general if you like, not only for RAW. When you use PureShot or 645Pro, these apps have always switched off stabilisation in any mode, even in full automatic mode. There is no setting to turn on stabilization. I understand this behaviour as a means of enhancing image quality. At least in well lit situations and hand held.

Thank you for your comment. It was very interesting for me to learn that having no stabilization can have advantages in certain situations.


Thank you! I totally forgot about that benefit of 645pro. I stumbled on that a while back while just goofing off. Way back when I first got my 6+. (So 2+ years ago) I remember being so excited when I captured some light play on accident. And then I went and totally forgot all about it!

Im looking forward to playing with both procamera and 645 now, see if I can start creating light abstracts again.
 
I would like to know how you think about the following of my thoughts.

It's about image quality and what the devices do to get the most out of it and what apps do to get the most out of it. And it's about my experience that you can't have both at the same time.

The device brings with it image stabilization. This means you have longer exposure times with lower ISO values. This can help reduce loss of sharpness due to hand shake or wind and whatever reason and means less noise.

Now you would say, that's good, lets combine this with the RAW shooting capabilities of some apps and you have the best out of two worlds.

This is a quotation from the ProCamera blog (https://www.procamera-app.com/en/blog/procamera-raw-dng-ios10/)
"When shooting RAW photos, no iOS image stabilization and processing is applied. You get the unaltered sensor data."

I understand this is no limitation of this app or of any other app. It's just the way the device handles shooting RAW. And I am ok with that. I mean, at least I know about such things and can decide how I want to handle certain situations. But what's about you? Did you know about this? Are you more the shooting-RAW-at-all-costs-type of user (using a tripod maybe) or the I-paid-for-image-stabilization-and-want-to-use-this type of shooter (who just wants all the technical advantages the device offers)?

Btw, do you like to shoot using manual controls for ISO and shutter speed? To my experience the same limitations apply here like the ones for RAW shooting. No image stabilization is applied. And the same goes for HDR and other shooting modes other than just plain snapping an image or video.

I’m finding that the more things change the more they stay the same. If you photograph with a variety of cameras, as I do, you can’t help but be constantly aware of the difference in quality between them. In spite of this, or maybe because of the extra challenge, I remain a dedicated iPhone photographer and I am constantly seeking ways to get better quality. But I have no illusions about image quality on the iPhone. You can’t expect to get large sensor 40MP results from a 4mm sensor. It’s getting better, but slowly. In addition, any technique we can use to extract better quality from our tiny sensor images can also be applied to bigger cameras, widening the gap even more.
The truth of the matter is that any compact camera makes better pictures than an iPhone, but that’s not why we do it. The combination of on-board computer and multi-numerous apps makes the iPhone (or similar) a very powerful image making platform not found in any other camera system. To some degree this is the way of the future and we stick with it because we recognize the potential. Should regular cameras gain this on-board editing with third party apps then lots of people will move in that direction.
What has been famously said, or asked, “What is the best camera? The one you have with you.” And we all know that everyone carries a cell phone these days.
On the other hand I also drop into a go-with-the-flow mode when photographing for mobile screen use, what I would call casual use, when jpegs are “good enough” for most mobile sharing applications.
One thing I have learned from painful experience. Don’t go very far down any new path without also examining the results on a bigger screen. Often things that look good on the small screen look awful when it is big enough to actually see what it there. I have wasted valuable time and ruined too many pictures this way.
Since I got my 7 Plus I have used RAW more and more but this presents a conundrum. Since there is not yet much support for processing RAW files on the device then most of the advantages can only be appreciated when processing on a desktop computer, which goes against the “all-mobile” definition. It is definitely true that making RAW originals on the iPhone and processing them on a desktop computer can yield remarkable results. You might almost say, unbelievable. So to some degree I am more focused on what can be done entirely on the device and save the RAW files I make for others uses, should they come up. I’m sure we will have better on-device RAW file handling before long but the demand for it is quite limited to a small percentage of keeners.
A similar issue comes up when making HDR photos of moving subjects. On mobile there aren’t any HDR apps with any good de-ghosting tools so you take it as it comes and for non-mobile use I can take my 3 brackets (which I always save) to my desktop computer where there are better options for de-ghosting. But then it becomes a non-mobile image.
One way to reduce the amount of jpeg image noise processing is to use the base ISO whenever possible. ISO 25 or 32, depending on who you read. Even more essential with RAW shooting to reduce the amount of noise reduction required later on. This is completely familiar to me from the film days.
I have always been a tripod user. Years of photographing with Kodachrome 25 or Panatonic X reinforced this. Beyond that there is so much more you can do with any camera when you use a tripod. Certainly, any video work involves a tripod. Now Live Photos also offer more options if shot on a tripod.
Many years ago, even though I was already a dedicated tripod user, I decided to compare my best hand holding techniques with the tripod - just to satisfy my curiosity. It didn’t take much looking to verify that even my best efforts at hand holding were not as sharp as using a tripod.
Something that would make a big difference to me is a longer maximum shutter time than 1/3 sec. even getting to one second would be important to my interests.
If you look at the definition of “snapshot” it says something about casual shooting without much regard to quality or technique - such as using a tripod. So by extension, photography involves using a tripod, and not using a tripod is just snapshooting. There, I said it.
If you want quality and extended camera functions you use a tripod.
However, I recognize there are some situations when hand holding is better. For instance while panning, or doing other deliberate motion effects. Sometime using a tripod is just so darned awkward that not using it becomes a way to avoid frustration, even though you realize the quality will be less.
If you use a powered gimbal in the attempt to extend video beyond the limitations when a tripod cannot be used, for instance while kayaking, or riding a Ferris wheel, or walking along a trail in the woods over rough ground, then you soon become confronted by image stabilization conflicts. This is mostly where I first became aware of iPhone-specific issues about stabilization conflicts with the gimbal and which apps are able to shut off image stabilization to avoid those problems. Apps like FiLMiC Pro can shut off image stabilization. Likewise the DJI Go app. On the other hand, people using DSLRs and tripods also know that image stabilization isn’t always good and know when to shut it off. For instance if you are making a long exposure at the shore that includes moving waves ( or other types of subject movement like leaves or branches moving in the wind), then image stabilization will try to steady the wave movement and your whole time exposure will be shaky.
Image stabilization for hand held video on the iPhone really has made a big improvement in viewability so I’m thankful for that.
Another problem of image stabilization centres around the way the lens is loosely mounted, or electronically suspended, and that turning off image stabilization does not result in a steady lens the way that a non-stabilized lens is solidly mounted. Even when shut off the lens elements can jiggle around if any vibration is present.
Learning about the degree of built-in noise reduction applied by the OS to all images, except dng, was a wake up call. Usually you have some choice about whether or not image smoothing is applied, but not in mobile phones. This also means that tiff images are not as much better than jpegs as one would expect. They both start out processed as jpegs but then the tiff is saved uncompressed instead of jpeg. It has already received the heavy processing before saving.
One of the basic quality decisions is using a low ISO, which means you need a camera app that will allow you to manually set your choice of ISO. After that it doesn’t matter if you use ISO priority automatic or manual control.
Your camera app needs exposure compensation.
A good histogram is essential, even though histograms are based on jpeg data and so far we don’t have proper RAW data histograms.
Another go/no-go camera choice issue is custom white balance or white balance lock. Auto White Balance works only in a limited range of circumstances and to get correct colour you need to be able to read the existing light and lock that WB setting. The °K sliders won’t do the job unless you happen to have a good colour temperature meter with you.
Just these few choices really narrows the field of usable camera apps. Ther are several promising RAW cameras that are not much better than snapshot apps because of the lack of these basic controls.
We also know that exposing for the best quality DNG file is very different than making a good jpeg. This makes saving both RAW & jpeg or tiff at the same time a wasted effort. You can’t have optimum conditions for RAW and other formats at the same time.
When you get into some the more advanced RAW shooting techniques that consider the different sensitivity of red and blue compared to green and much more image noise in red and blue layers, and on top of that, pre-filtering the image with magenta/red filters to improve the balance, then things get a bit beyond mobile processing to accomplish.

Something I find frustrating on the iPhone, even with the bigger Plus sized screen, it is difficult to see the screen properly outdoors in bright light. Many of those useful on-screen features are useless if you can’t see them. For instance, screen grids that are too fine or too low in contrast to be visible. On-screen level indicator that becomes invisible outdoors. For the sake of image quality it is very important to avoid the need to resample an image to straighten the horizon. I think people are too casual in relying on straightening the image afterwards, not realizing losses are being incurred. Even when photographing on a tripod I often find it difficult to get the image exactly straight. The on-screen level is too hard to see and not sufficiently accurate or can’t be calibrated. With great care I level the camera only to discover later it isn’t perfectly level.
 
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I personally do not like the image stabilizer at all. If there is a way to disable it, I’d be ecstatic to learn how. Not even kidding.

I have a shake. Sometimes it’s slight, sometimes it terrible and sometimes it’s a non issue. I’ve found on the days it is only a slight issue, I end up with pictures that just aren’t crisp enough. On prior phones, I was able to work around the issue. With this one, I seem to be loosing image detail. Not to mention the delay I quite often end up with as it pauses between my button press and the actual shutter click. I will end up with a completely different capture than what was intended.

I also LOVE to shake my phone to create abstracts using lights, colors, sunsets/rises and so on. The stabilization makes it near impossible. I HATE THIS SO MUCH. I used to be able to get crisp abstracts and now I get blurry focused landscapes. It’s frustrating. This has taken away probably 3/4 of what I was photographing (since most of my art work was based on these photos).

Now that I know this particular app doesn’t use the stabilization when shooting raw, I’m more inclined to shoot with it.

Don’t forget that just turning off image stabilization doesn’t mean the lens is solidly mounted. It is very delicately floating on a suspension system. When image stabilization is turned off the lens is still susceptible to jiggling with any external vibration. On the 7 Plus there is image stabilization only on the wide lens. On the 8 Plus (and X) both tele and wide lenses now have stabilization.
 
Another area for improved image quality is focus and depth of field. Too often photos come out lacking sufficient focus on important foreground or background elements. With a fixed f1.8 aperture we don’t have any way to adjust depth of field, except for avoiding situations where important elements will be out of focus. Not much of a solution when it interferes with your composition. We don’t yet have a good focus stacking system that is entirely mobile. StayFocused was pretty good but relied on server processing, and since then they have re-thought their way of doing things and the server is shut off. Still awaiting an all in-app solution.
FocusCamera does in-app processing but only at lower resolution, and only with 3 focus steps.
Of course there are lots of computer based focus stacking options if you have a good set of focus step images to work with. I’m still hoping for an all-Mobile solution.
I’ve heard that Luminar on (new) iPad can process focus stack images but my iPad is too old to run Luminar.
More camera apps now have focus peaking to make it easier to see what is really in focus and this is a big help in daylight.
 
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